H
heliharley
Guest
Which is better the power commander or SE supertuner?Can I fit it myself and tune to a standard supplied map or is it better going to a dyno shop?
Mr B
Registered User
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
I don't know anything about the SE tuner because I've never had one. However I do have a Power Commander 111 USB on my Road King. It's not connected at the moment, the map I was using kept changing by itself. I'd be riding along, and get rough running, and high fuel consumption without warning. This has hapened 4 times, so I unplugged it.
This apparently can be a common fault, and no reason is given for this behaviour. I couldn't send it back, this is one problem you face when buying direct from the States....you have no comeback when something goes tits up.
I don't reccomend the PC....this is just my opinion based on my experience, so maybe the SE tuner could be a better bit of kit.
Any canned map is only a guide, and is no subsitute for a proper dyno tune
And....you can fit anything yourself if you want to, it will only be cable ties and a couple of plugs.
Brian.
I don't know anything about the SE tuner because I've never had one. However I do have a Power Commander 111 USB on my Road King. It's not connected at the moment, the map I was using kept changing by itself. I'd be riding along, and get rough running, and high fuel consumption without warning. This has hapened 4 times, so I unplugged it.
This apparently can be a common fault, and no reason is given for this behaviour. I couldn't send it back, this is one problem you face when buying direct from the States....you have no comeback when something goes tits up.
I don't reccomend the PC....this is just my opinion based on my experience, so maybe the SE tuner could be a better bit of kit.
Any canned map is only a guide, and is no subsitute for a proper dyno tune
And....you can fit anything yourself if you want to, it will only be cable ties and a couple of plugs.
Brian.
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Bute Bagger
Registered User
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
Thundermax efi with autotune , base map is selected and installed with your laptop , the bike is started and as it warms up the laptop is still connected while it adjusts the AFR for idle /engine temp settings , the laptop will let you know when it has completed this setting , disconnect it and ride , the Autotune feature constantly adjusts your AFR to your riding style and conditions , no dyno required , top notch tuner you can see there site at Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) and Performance Parts for Harley Davidson and VTwin Motorcycles ......... Bert.
Thundermax efi with autotune , base map is selected and installed with your laptop , the bike is started and as it warms up the laptop is still connected while it adjusts the AFR for idle /engine temp settings , the laptop will let you know when it has completed this setting , disconnect it and ride , the Autotune feature constantly adjusts your AFR to your riding style and conditions , no dyno required , top notch tuner you can see there site at Electronic Fuel Injection (EFI) and Performance Parts for Harley Davidson and VTwin Motorcycles ......... Bert.
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grbrown
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
IMHO better going to a dyno shop, to get the best out of your bike. In that case, having selected your preferred shop, go with what they recommend. You also want him to use what he is most familiar with it, so you get the best of his expertise. No point insisting he uses something he is not familiar with, or which he reckons isn't suitable for your bike. If you approach two shops and they each recommend a different tuner, you have to make up your own mind!
IMHO better going to a dyno shop, to get the best out of your bike. In that case, having selected your preferred shop, go with what they recommend. You also want him to use what he is most familiar with it, so you get the best of his expertise. No point insisting he uses something he is not familiar with, or which he reckons isn't suitable for your bike. If you approach two shops and they each recommend a different tuner, you have to make up your own mind!
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Foxster
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
Its not an easy one to answer cos there's no one answer for everyone as to what's the best tuner. Depends what you want to spend, how accurate a tune you want and how much time/effort you want to put into it.
PC's big up is that they are made for lots of bikes and so all kinds of places are familiar with tuning with them. Their range of canned maps are good too and if you get it dynoed too then a half-decent mechanic can get it dialled in pretty good.
Coupla big downsides to the PC though. It does require the bike's O2 sensors to be disconnected. This removes a major sensor system for the bike and this makes the bike much more sensitive to variations, and the UK is great at throwing variations at you. Also with the PC, you leave the controller on the bike and these are subject to vibration and damp that leads to quite a lot of stories of failures.
Personally I have a SE tuner (SEPST) on my Dyna. It gets over the two downsides of the PC and you can get a real good tune with it. You have three choices with it for tuning....
You can throw on a canned map and call it good; this will get you a long way there.
Or you can put the canned map on and do some auto-tuning; but that does require the extra purchase of the leads and software and having a laptop to hook up to the bike. This gets you like 90% of the way there.
Or you can get it dyno-tuned; best solution but less places are familiar with the SEPST and have the gear to do it, usually just the dealers.
Well, there is another way, which is what I do but its one for the bike fiddler. This is to book time on a dyno and do the tuning yourself.
A downside to the SEPST is that there are fewer canned maps available, just those for Harley stock and SE hardware, though they are OKish for a range of hardware in practice.
Its not an easy one to answer cos there's no one answer for everyone as to what's the best tuner. Depends what you want to spend, how accurate a tune you want and how much time/effort you want to put into it.
PC's big up is that they are made for lots of bikes and so all kinds of places are familiar with tuning with them. Their range of canned maps are good too and if you get it dynoed too then a half-decent mechanic can get it dialled in pretty good.
Coupla big downsides to the PC though. It does require the bike's O2 sensors to be disconnected. This removes a major sensor system for the bike and this makes the bike much more sensitive to variations, and the UK is great at throwing variations at you. Also with the PC, you leave the controller on the bike and these are subject to vibration and damp that leads to quite a lot of stories of failures.
Personally I have a SE tuner (SEPST) on my Dyna. It gets over the two downsides of the PC and you can get a real good tune with it. You have three choices with it for tuning....
You can throw on a canned map and call it good; this will get you a long way there.
Or you can put the canned map on and do some auto-tuning; but that does require the extra purchase of the leads and software and having a laptop to hook up to the bike. This gets you like 90% of the way there.
Or you can get it dyno-tuned; best solution but less places are familiar with the SEPST and have the gear to do it, usually just the dealers.
Well, there is another way, which is what I do but its one for the bike fiddler. This is to book time on a dyno and do the tuning yourself.
A downside to the SEPST is that there are fewer canned maps available, just those for Harley stock and SE hardware, though they are OKish for a range of hardware in practice.
H
heliharley
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
Some good info foxster. Thanks. Stez at polar cycles recommends the PC but then again he's booked up til march! ( what recession). My other local place use the SE.... Mmmm...... Reliability for me every time and at the end of the day if I can get somewhere close I think that'll be good enough for me, I'm not racing it after all. Just need to get those stock pipes off and get some noise out of it!
Some good info foxster. Thanks. Stez at polar cycles recommends the PC but then again he's booked up til march! ( what recession). My other local place use the SE.... Mmmm...... Reliability for me every time and at the end of the day if I can get somewhere close I think that'll be good enough for me, I'm not racing it after all. Just need to get those stock pipes off and get some noise out of it!
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Foxster
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
There is another solution if you just want to replace the pipes and cool the bike down a bit, though they don't do anything much for performance: Xieds. Google it. NIGHTRIDER.com - Motorcycle Performance Information. Only set you back about ?100 as well.
There is another solution if you just want to replace the pipes and cool the bike down a bit, though they don't do anything much for performance: Xieds. Google it. NIGHTRIDER.com - Motorcycle Performance Information. Only set you back about ?100 as well.
howo
Club Member
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
there is another option. dyno tune your factory unit......
I only work with the Direct Link system, as the add on fuelers are far too limiting and the SE Supertuner is devoid of technical support, has software glitches, and slower to tune with on the dyno.
What I would do with yours is
1) Program the exhaust flap to remain open
2) Program out the throttle opening delay
3) I would have to drill your header pipes to take accurate O2 readings (these are plugged off afterwards and are under the heat shields so the modification doesn't show).
4) Correctly tune the bike in all areas for best driveability, poer, and fuel economy.
5) I would need the bike here for a whole day with a full tank of fuel.
6) Direct Link hardware key is ?286 inc vat and assigns itself to the bike.
7) Cost of the tuning is a further ?420 inc vat
8) Nothing is left connected to the bike after tuning, and there is no impact on any dealer diagnostic work in the future..
9) If you make any further changes the bike will need tuning again and you will be duplicating the dyno costs, but the DL key can be reused on the same bike (it mates to the ECM).
i had this reply from an inquiry i made. and worked out ?100 more then i was quoted for the sert but upside is spot on tune.
there is another option. dyno tune your factory unit......
I only work with the Direct Link system, as the add on fuelers are far too limiting and the SE Supertuner is devoid of technical support, has software glitches, and slower to tune with on the dyno.
What I would do with yours is
1) Program the exhaust flap to remain open
2) Program out the throttle opening delay
3) I would have to drill your header pipes to take accurate O2 readings (these are plugged off afterwards and are under the heat shields so the modification doesn't show).
4) Correctly tune the bike in all areas for best driveability, poer, and fuel economy.
5) I would need the bike here for a whole day with a full tank of fuel.
6) Direct Link hardware key is ?286 inc vat and assigns itself to the bike.
7) Cost of the tuning is a further ?420 inc vat
8) Nothing is left connected to the bike after tuning, and there is no impact on any dealer diagnostic work in the future..
9) If you make any further changes the bike will need tuning again and you will be duplicating the dyno costs, but the DL key can be reused on the same bike (it mates to the ECM).
i had this reply from an inquiry i made. and worked out ?100 more then i was quoted for the sert but upside is spot on tune.
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Foxster
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
I looked into the Direct Link system a little while ago. It basically does the same as the SEPST in that it reprograms the bike's ECU. I couldn't find any real advantages of it. You can get exactly the same tune with either because there's only so many things to adjust.
Addressing the tuner's points about the SEPST...
"Devoid of technical support". Not sure what he means by this. Its supported by H-D but its true there's not a huge library of maps for it but it didn't stop me and thousands of others using it without problems.
"Has software glitches". Never had them. I've used the SEPST software dozens of times and never had a problem.
"Slower to tune with on the dyno". That's his problem. Its actually dead easy with the SEPST and changing the values during a tuning sessions takes a few seconds. Can't see the point in shaving some time off a few seconds.
Then you only get a key or license to use the Direct Link system on your bike. So there's no ability for you to make changes yourself or take the bike elsewhere to have more work done on the tune if, say, you change the exhaust. And its dearer than a SEPST.
I also don't really see the need to drill the headers to take accurate O2 readings. An O2 probe up the exhaust seems to suit every other tuner. And you aren't tuning for AFR but for power so dead accurate O2 readings aren't really necessary.
Still struggling to see the point of it except that the guy trying to sell happens to be familiar with it and prefers it. Not saying there's anything wrong with it, I just struggle to see why it might be better.
I looked into the Direct Link system a little while ago. It basically does the same as the SEPST in that it reprograms the bike's ECU. I couldn't find any real advantages of it. You can get exactly the same tune with either because there's only so many things to adjust.
Addressing the tuner's points about the SEPST...
"Devoid of technical support". Not sure what he means by this. Its supported by H-D but its true there's not a huge library of maps for it but it didn't stop me and thousands of others using it without problems.
"Has software glitches". Never had them. I've used the SEPST software dozens of times and never had a problem.
"Slower to tune with on the dyno". That's his problem. Its actually dead easy with the SEPST and changing the values during a tuning sessions takes a few seconds. Can't see the point in shaving some time off a few seconds.
Then you only get a key or license to use the Direct Link system on your bike. So there's no ability for you to make changes yourself or take the bike elsewhere to have more work done on the tune if, say, you change the exhaust. And its dearer than a SEPST.
I also don't really see the need to drill the headers to take accurate O2 readings. An O2 probe up the exhaust seems to suit every other tuner. And you aren't tuning for AFR but for power so dead accurate O2 readings aren't really necessary.
Still struggling to see the point of it except that the guy trying to sell happens to be familiar with it and prefers it. Not saying there's anything wrong with it, I just struggle to see why it might be better.
H
heliharley
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
Agreed never heard any of the shops round here mention it. I'm not into saving a few quid either, been there done that. I.ll go the SE route I think seems to be more reliable if abit restricted in the mapping for non OEM products. Worse case scenario I'll get it dynoed by someone with SE experience.
Agreed never heard any of the shops round here mention it. I'm not into saving a few quid either, been there done that. I.ll go the SE route I think seems to be more reliable if abit restricted in the mapping for non OEM products. Worse case scenario I'll get it dynoed by someone with SE experience.
Simon
Registered User
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
Something to consider is how often you will be changing bits on your bike. If you are only going to make a few changes and then leave it, all well and good. However, if you are going to be making regular changes them there are better alternatives.
I'm about to ditch the SEPRT and stock ECU on my XR1200 for a Thundermax auto-tune system. One a base map is loaded with a target AFR it will constantly readjust the settings to suit. Periodically you can reset the base map. You can also get the bike dyne tuned to get it spot on but the system has the advantage of doing most of the work for you.
Something to consider is how often you will be changing bits on your bike. If you are only going to make a few changes and then leave it, all well and good. However, if you are going to be making regular changes them there are better alternatives.
I'm about to ditch the SEPRT and stock ECU on my XR1200 for a Thundermax auto-tune system. One a base map is loaded with a target AFR it will constantly readjust the settings to suit. Periodically you can reset the base map. You can also get the bike dyne tuned to get it spot on but the system has the advantage of doing most of the work for you.
F
Foxster
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
With the SEPST you put on a canned map and then use Autotune (if you have the software and leads) to get a pretty good tune. You can also get it dyno-tuned and get it even better.
With the Thundermax you do the same. Its just a bit better at keeping the target AFR, but that's just a target AFR, its not what is the best power, you need a dyno to measure that.
I doubt you'd really get a better tune from either.
Umm, I might kinda see the point of the Thundermax for starting from scratch but I really don't see you are going to get much from it as a replacement. Though from a "its mid-winter and I want to spend some money on something to play with" point of view I'm right there with you.
With the SEPST you put on a canned map and then use Autotune (if you have the software and leads) to get a pretty good tune. You can also get it dyno-tuned and get it even better.
With the Thundermax you do the same. Its just a bit better at keeping the target AFR, but that's just a target AFR, its not what is the best power, you need a dyno to measure that.
I doubt you'd really get a better tune from either.
Simon
Registered User
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
Then we agree to differ on some elements and agree to agree on others.
The bike came with the SEPRT fitted presumably because it was an ex-demo bike for Cheltenham HD. It wasn't what I would have chosen but I've run it for six months to give it a fair go. I've got the leads and software for the SEPRT and have had a decent play with it. I've decided its not for me. I've had a look at the Thundermax and prefer the flexibility it provides me.
Harley don't provide any performance parts for the XR so everything is after market. The Thundermax is more suited to that direction in my mind. The SEPRT is a good system but doesn't really allow parts changes without going back into the system whereas the Thundermax does.
As for peak power/torque, as you state, none of the systems will get that without a proper dyno tune but the Thundermax will place you nearer more consistently. I also like the fact it will compensate for different octane rated fuel on the fly.
I've got three choices of cams lined up, starting with the little ones (575's) and working up. It should be interesting to see how much or little actually needs to be done when setting them up.
Then we agree to differ on some elements and agree to agree on others.
The bike came with the SEPRT fitted presumably because it was an ex-demo bike for Cheltenham HD. It wasn't what I would have chosen but I've run it for six months to give it a fair go. I've got the leads and software for the SEPRT and have had a decent play with it. I've decided its not for me. I've had a look at the Thundermax and prefer the flexibility it provides me.
Harley don't provide any performance parts for the XR so everything is after market. The Thundermax is more suited to that direction in my mind. The SEPRT is a good system but doesn't really allow parts changes without going back into the system whereas the Thundermax does.
As for peak power/torque, as you state, none of the systems will get that without a proper dyno tune but the Thundermax will place you nearer more consistently. I also like the fact it will compensate for different octane rated fuel on the fly.
I've got three choices of cams lined up, starting with the little ones (575's) and working up. It should be interesting to see how much or little actually needs to be done when setting them up.
F
Foxster
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
Sounds like a plan. Post how it turns out cos I'm definitely interested.
Simon
Registered User
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
Will do. I'm interested in how far it will go. Are you going to be at Talgarth?
For the original poster, if you are starting from scratch (and certainly looking at aftermarket parts) the Thundermax with Auto Tune is a viable alternative.
Will do. I'm interested in how far it will go. Are you going to be at Talgarth?
For the original poster, if you are starting from scratch (and certainly looking at aftermarket parts) the Thundermax with Auto Tune is a viable alternative.
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J
Julesx
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
I have read this thread with interest as I want to Stage 1 my 2010 Street Bob.
Foxster has kindly offered his advice in the past
smile and I am now ready to do my bike. As with most things cost is a consideration!
I have just found a ball park figure of ?690 for the Thundermax auto tune. I need someone to fit it and I assume tune it - Any ideas of tuning costs and who to do the work?
Alternatively I think I would be happy with a SEPST tune but have no idea how much HD charge for loading the map and then tuning the bike.
I'm thinking that the SEPST might be cheaper!?
Foxster, anyone give me a price?
Thanks
Jules
I have read this thread with interest as I want to Stage 1 my 2010 Street Bob.
Foxster has kindly offered his advice in the past
smile and I am now ready to do my bike. As with most things cost is a consideration!I have just found a ball park figure of ?690 for the Thundermax auto tune. I need someone to fit it and I assume tune it - Any ideas of tuning costs and who to do the work?
Alternatively I think I would be happy with a SEPST tune but have no idea how much HD charge for loading the map and then tuning the bike.
I'm thinking that the SEPST might be cheaper!?
Foxster, anyone give me a price?
Thanks
Jules
Bute Bagger
Registered User
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
The Thundermax is easy to fit , about an hour for your average home mechanic , download your map from the T max website , plug in your laptop to the bike with the cable provided, transfer the map , fire up the bike and watch the bike set its idle setting on real time gauges on your laptop it will tell you when it's finished shut the bike down disconnect and ride , the autotune will do the rest , no requirement for dyno time and added expense , come to the Bute rally and I will fit it and tune it over the weekend for the price of a pint
The Thundermax is easy to fit , about an hour for your average home mechanic , download your map from the T max website , plug in your laptop to the bike with the cable provided, transfer the map , fire up the bike and watch the bike set its idle setting on real time gauges on your laptop it will tell you when it's finished shut the bike down disconnect and ride , the autotune will do the rest , no requirement for dyno time and added expense , come to the Bute rally and I will fit it and tune it over the weekend for the price of a pint
H
heliharley
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
Sorry just jumpin back into this thread as I got a SE race fueler instead (part of a bulk order from overseas and was cheap as chips)are these any good?
Sorry just jumpin back into this thread as I got a SE race fueler instead (part of a bulk order from overseas and was cheap as chips)are these any good?
Y
Yeti
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
If of any use, we have taken off many V&H FuelPaks and some SE Tuners replacing with Thundermax's, PC III's and PCV - some due to our recommendation, but in the main due to punters choice and pleased they came to The Hogfather Motorcycles as we are approved installers / tuners for these two in our opinion better tuning aids. We fit loads of PC III's and PC V's (circa. 20 already this year), on the ThunderMax with AutoTune, a punter brought us his CVO 110Cui Electra Glide Ultra from down south, with a "simple" objective, he wanted it tuned to hit 110 BHP on our Dyno. Yes we did other things, which pumped up the overall cost, but the owner had it in his head that's what he wanted, so that's what he got without performing any major mechaincal internals - a side issue I know, but hey, thought I'd throw it in for good measure. Regardless, as someone once said opinions are like arse holes everyone's got one, so whatever you coose, hope it works for you. Take care all and see you at the Lakes gig in July.
If of any use, we have taken off many V&H FuelPaks and some SE Tuners replacing with Thundermax's, PC III's and PCV - some due to our recommendation, but in the main due to punters choice and pleased they came to The Hogfather Motorcycles as we are approved installers / tuners for these two in our opinion better tuning aids. We fit loads of PC III's and PC V's (circa. 20 already this year), on the ThunderMax with AutoTune, a punter brought us his CVO 110Cui Electra Glide Ultra from down south, with a "simple" objective, he wanted it tuned to hit 110 BHP on our Dyno. Yes we did other things, which pumped up the overall cost, but the owner had it in his head that's what he wanted, so that's what he got without performing any major mechaincal internals - a side issue I know, but hey, thought I'd throw it in for good measure. Regardless, as someone once said opinions are like arse holes everyone's got one, so whatever you coose, hope it works for you. Take care all and see you at the Lakes gig in July.
H
heliharley
Guest
Re: Power commander or screamin eagle tuner
Belated update. Bought a SE race fueler first and took it to the dyno. Russ at torquetune set it up, seemed ok, easy to fit and set up. Til about 7000 rpm then it leaned right off.Thought it was duff so went back for a PC V fit. Nice bit of kit til 7000 rpm and it did the same thing.
That'll be a bike issue then. Found the fuel sock internal baffle had moved and sucked flat. This had let the filter only work at the area the size of the orifice and this had become dirty. Cleaned re positioned baffle and started again. Worked spot on. So the race fuel was ok in the first instance. Left the PC V on tho, expensive but I was impressed enough with the results.
Belated update. Bought a SE race fueler first and took it to the dyno. Russ at torquetune set it up, seemed ok, easy to fit and set up. Til about 7000 rpm then it leaned right off.Thought it was duff so went back for a PC V fit. Nice bit of kit til 7000 rpm and it did the same thing.
That'll be a bike issue then. Found the fuel sock internal baffle had moved and sucked flat. This had let the filter only work at the area the size of the orifice and this had become dirty. Cleaned re positioned baffle and started again. Worked spot on. So the race fuel was ok in the first instance. Left the PC V on tho, expensive but I was impressed enough with the results.
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